The Curious Musician Interview: Aron Magner

Greetings and welcome to The Curious Musician! This is a space where we will explore creativity and curiosity by interviewing a host of interesting and notable people for chewy conversations and some great concert stories too. 

In today's episode I am joined by Aron Magner, keyboardist for The Disco Biscuits as well as a host of side projects and all-star bands. Aron is a consummate musician with a deep love of synths, grooves and connecting through music. Enjoy the episode and stay tuned for more!

Link up at www.instagram.com/the.curiousmusician and YouTube!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

All right. I am here, Robbie Jeanette, with my friend Aaron Magner from the Disco Biscuits, is what he's most known for, though you have many other things that you're known for. Aaron, welcome. How are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hey, thank you, Robbie. I'm great. Good to be here. Good to see you. Good to catch up with you. I'm excited for this.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Yes. And uh you and I met in the late 90s. Our bands uh were fledgling. I had a band called Rudy, and we played at, I believe, the Grape Street pub in Philadelphia. Um, we drove up.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Wow, that's a that's an amazing memory. I do not have that memory. Did we hang at the Grape Street Club? We did.

SPEAKER_00 0:35

That's that's where we met, and you got to meet uh Ray Conga Diaz. Rest in peace. And uh rest in peace, I remember Ray, of course, yeah. Yeah, and then a couple years later, um Rudy opened for the Disco Biscuits around Florida. We did some shows, we had a lot of fun, and um, ever since you and I kept in uh random touch, uh always wish it was more. So um I wanted I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your journey into becoming who you are. And when you were young, I like to start with everybody when they were young. Um, you are a learned musician. And so obviously, when you're starting music, you come into it from a natural stunt stunted learned. Yes. Um what was your educational journey in music in terms of formal? Um, what kind of lessons did you take or whatnot as a kid?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Um, so my next door neighbor was the neighborhood piano teacher. Um and so, you know, we all started with recorder, right? All the neighborhood kids, and then we moved on pretty quickly to piano and you know the little books with you know uh animals associated with them, and then you know, learning melodies and everything like that. And um, I guess I took to it more, you know, not to say that I had uh uh a precocious talent that was identified, just I enjoyed it. And where everybody else kind of dropped out, um I I stayed with it for uh for a little bit. Um and hold on one second, you're gonna edit this, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I'm just trying to we're just rolling.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

This is a casual conversation. So yeah, so she was she was great and kind of like set me on my way. Um and then once I realized that I did have some some sort of precocious talent that my dad wanted to uh you know help illuminate, he brought me downtown. Temple had some sort of conservatory downtown, and he, you know, found me a nice studious teacher, and I stuck with her and my you know newfound like uh oh, I could you know do this as a you know whatever as a professional. Um as an 11-year-old professional. And um I I I very quickly got uninterested in it. And um I remember telling my parents, and they were totally cool. I was like, hey, I don't want to do this anymore. And you know, you know as a parent, right? Like, where is that line where you you know let your kid choose their own destiny, and where is that you know, point as a parent where you're like, oh kid, you don't know any better. I'm going to push you to do the thing that I know you need to do, but you don't know you need to do it. Right. But my parents let me explore that for myself. And um and I took about a year and a half off, right? Uh two years maybe, and randomly for no particular reason, I was probably bored. Um I was like, hey, I want to um get a different piano teacher. And so they you know searched around and then they found me a piano teacher that um I think his name is Peter Syndicate, and I would say that that man changed the course of uh my life as had other teachers uh subsequently, yeah. But you know, he's also the um you know a little bit more expanded of the neighborhood, if you will. Yeah, but he has set a lot of professional musicians um on their way, as well as uh a lot of uh uh you know uh avocacious uh musicians.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

What was it about him as a teacher that um that helped you like open up? And also what was different about him as a teacher from the other teachers that you had been learning from?

SPEAKER_02 4:06

Okay. Um number one, he he was new, and I I have always kind of felt like after you study with a teacher for you know some period of time that can vary, um it's it's time to move on. Like not to say you've gotten everything out of that person, but a relationship is frequently time to move on. Yeah. So we we were still honeymooning in the you know, student uh teacher relationship, if you will. And um he exposed me to jazz, and that was really the um that was the turning point. That was the you know, flash in the pan.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Did you get it as a listener, not just as a student? Did you get jazz like when it came to you, where you're like, oh, this is great, or did it take you some time to break in to it?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

It definitely took me some time, but over the course of you know, and we were doing this hybrid, like, you know, part classical, clo part like introduction to jazz, right? And after just a few months, it was like, yo, I don't want to do that classical thing anymore. Like I want to immerse myself in this jazz thing, right? And um he was studying with like a a guy named Jimmy Amity who has this like had this methodology, right? Um similar to like a uh Barry Harris, actually, right? He was like local to this area, and so I studied this um curriculum, if you will, as like a young teenager, and then you know, high school, and you know, you start playing with other people that that play music and figuring that out and you know, testing yourself, and then um, you know, I I um I I did get another teacher in high school that was uh a professional jazz musician, and he was incredible uh named Michael Frank. And he introduced me to his scene in Philadelphia. They were like 20 years older than me. Right. And so I was the kid that would go down and like you know, get to have like you know, a sit-in while they would like, you know, go to the bar, you know, or or throw me the gigs that they you know couldn't do or didn't want to do or whatever it was, right? So that's one of the reasons that I stayed in Philadelphia to go to college in the first place. I went to the University of Pennsylvania, which is where I met the disco biscuits, and I hadn't really played rock, you know, in in a real good rock band or even rock music on piano, you know. Even Grateful Dead, I was always into The Grateful Dead in you know, also at a precocious age, right? You know, an older older cousin loved it, and therefore I loved it, and you know, at 11 years old I was also into The Grateful Dead and never got off that bus. Um but what's interesting is that I also never really learned that catalog until later in life when you know, exposed to different Grateful Dead projects and stuff like that, that I really had to know it. Yeah, and that was an interesting process because it was so in my um DNA at the time anyway. You know, so like you know, as we grow older as musicians, I feel like we hear different things in our heads, our sense of harmony becomes better, our ability to you know pick things out and just go to the piano and like know how something goes, you know. Um and so I thought that that was kind of like an interesting juxtaposition of being a little bit older and wiser musically to be able to approach that catalog.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, it makes sense. So go going back to when you were taking lessons, and obviously you're not the only person that started out in class school because that's what everybody is supposed to do, and then you know, got out. At some point you got into improv and improvising. And when you were young, at what point were you sitting down and creating your own music, just making stuff up?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Probably from the beginning. I'm pretty sure that that's that's how my parents knew that, like, oh, he likes the piano or he's good at piano or whatever, right? When you can re- and and my dad kind of like still brags about this, and I don't even remember it being true because he he brags about it in such a way, like, you know, look at like look at my child freak. He can recall any song that you tell him, but you know, being like, oh, he was always able to play things, you know, just out of like memory alone. Yeah, I don't really recall being able to do that, but you know, make it making things up, improvising on a melody again with this you know teacher I was talking about when I was like 13, 14, and you know, him just introducing me to the general concept of improvisation, right? Like, I mean, you know, it took me a decade to really feel comfortable doing this improvisation, you know, well well into you know being in a somewhat improvisational rock band and playing, you know, jazz at a little bit higher of a level in high school and college, right? Again, very stunted uh understanding of jazz, but I feel like that's what makes my voice in jazz kind of unique, right? Um, you know, more of a a friend of jazz than a jazzer, and therefore I don't feel the imposter um aspect of it, you know, and I can you know get the jazz police and stay away because I'm not really you know there's a little bit of fake it till you make it when you go and improvise, you know 100%. Well, let's talk about that, right? Like it is I I think there's a lot of fake it till you make it, whether you want to recognize that, you know, or not in life. Right and you know, I mean, I would say, you know, in improvisations, I'm still kind of faking it, right? You know, like and and I mean where's that line between faking it and flow state, right? Where that's a great question. You know, I I'm saying faking it because I can't necessarily um back up every single deliberate note that I played with a reason why.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Right. I mean, when you say faking it, sometimes it's a matter of reverting to patterns and formulas and things that we we are comfortable running, and then the improv part comes from when we're in that flow state. But I think it's like a balance. Like I play a lot of blues and boogie woogie. So I do different stuff than that, but I have to keep that up as a singular pursuit in order to keep that, you know, nice and oiled in my my wheelhouse. I lost your video. Yeah, I just saw that. That's weird. I don't know. Hey, too good looking for the camera. So um there's that there's this idea of making music, and then there's this idea of understanding it and having this knowledge. And a lot of people who uh avoid lessons or being more learned do so because they're afraid of ruining the magic. Where the opposite is true. It's like being a wizard and you're learning to cast spells, if that's makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

I mean, yeah. Listen, I hold that thought for one second. I mean, just that analogy of us being wizards and and casting spells. Um somebody approached me this summertime and uh with his whatever concept that he saw, and and said that this is the closest thing to black magic that exists, you know. And I thought about it, and that's kind of like stayed with me. And and perhaps that's what attracts everybody to improvisational music, is like, how is this even possible? I'm witnessing it, you know. But how do you guys know what even to do? You know, and I I I can't necessarily answer that question either. I could expound upon it, but you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Well, you look you look back and you can listen to tapes, and look, you know, you take a band, well, I mentioned Fish. This is a band who's been together over 40 years, improvising together, the same four guys, and you don't have in the world another example of the same four people improvising together for that long. So there's stuff that happens on stage with them that I'm sure that it's as unconscious as possible. And they listen back, like, wow, that all just like locked together. And you, I'm sure, every night doing, you know, in a sense, essentially different versions of the same songs and letting them flow and letting them be and stuff like that. You do get into that flow state. But I'm wondering when you were starting out, were you drawn to understanding it, or were you drawn more to the finger painting creation of it? You know, did you want to know what made it work, or were you just like, screw it, I'm painting. This is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Well, uh, more of the latter. Um, I think that there was more of a struggle and a continued struggle with with the first, you know, wanting to like understand what is it that I'm not doing that I can also be doing, you know, and that's a question that I that I still ask for myself. Um, you know, and there's concepts in you know, music and improvisation and theory and jazz that just go way over my head. Um, you know, some of them I try to immerse myself in. I mean, you know, the this little thing that we carry around with us is really fucking cool, you know, is everybody wants to spout information that they have. Unfortunately, there's a lot of noise that does come with it. But, you know, when you find somebody that is um, you know, speaking truth or somebody that you resonate with, you know, albeit an influencer, you know, there's some fucking high-level didactic concepts out there that like you can learn just by following somebody. Like, that's incredible. But that's a little, that's always been somewhat daunting to me, right? Because I I stopped my musical growth, you know, my my educational, my my academic uh musical growth the second that I got into college and then started to explore a this other territory of you know, jam band or improvisational band, whatever. Um, and you know, I'm still playing jazz, but that kind of like started to fall by by the wayside a little bit. So um yeah, you know, it's like that that's kind of what I'm talking about. There's like this stunted thing where I'm I want to learn more, but I know that that's something that I should have learned more about in my formative years.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Look, there's some concepts that are meant to measure and analyze things in music that at the end of the day, it's cool to look at, but it doesn't help you. Like the circle of fifths, you can create that out of music and make it a nicer, but how is that gonna help you necessarily as a player to look at it, you know, and to and to study it? So, you know, there's so we we look at concepts, we can kind of notice things, but look, if you could measure how far your gas pedal is from the floor at all different times, does that make you a better driver? You know, there's once you're in the flow state, in the wheel and you're driving, a lot of those things are there, they don't matter as much in the moment. So the people who get super analytical versus not, you know, we could have that discussion. But going back to when you got into jazz, yeah, what what would have been, and not necessarily piano player, but the first jazz musician that you could kind of underst understand, or like you that you kind of got their their phrasing and what they were doing.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Um, okay. So Bill Evans for melodic phrasing, um Red Gardner for um uh rhythmic comping. That was a really, really big one for me to be able to understand. God, I hadn't thought of that name in years. I love that question.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Red Garland.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Red Garland, thank you. Um great player. So yeah, and he had a left-hand comp that I was kind of able to understand, you know, both both the voicings as well where the accents were. And I was able to um, you know, emulate it and use that as kind of like a baseline for you know how I can improvise over changes at a at a young age. And I remember being kind of overwhelmed by Herbie and Chick, you know, very in very intrigued, right? Like, oh my God, that is a sound coming from the same instrument with the same keys, and you know, and I had questions and I would immerse myself and I would listen, but I I truly didn't understand how how that was accomplished. And you know, and it and I went on to some studies, I you know, learned a little bit more, I guess, like you know, took a summer at Eastman School of Music, and you know, I was able to like that will help, right? So I was able to like you know dive into things a little bit more. Um, but it was it, yeah, it was really Red Garland that kind of changed my concept there. It was Bill Evans in terms of melodic phrasing. Yeah. Um, that that was a game changer for me.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

How about as a how about a non-piano player, uh guitar guitar player or a horn player, or somebody that like I'll give you for instance, I interviewed a guy uh named Marion Petrescu, great piano player. And he said when he was a kid, he was able to memorize all of Ray Brown's bass lines on all these jazz records his parents were playing, and that was how he connected via an instrument he doesn't even touch or play. So was there somebody that stood out when in your formative years musically that informed you music uh of your music knowledge uh that was not Keys based?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

I mean, nobody that stands out. I guess like as I start talking, I'll see. I feel like when I was a teenager and you were soaking up all the music that you were exposed to in as organic of a way as we used to, you know, become exposed to music in the first place. Um, you know, it was I I I have to speak genre specific as opposed to a specific, you know, musician. So it was definitely like you know, classic rock, like you know, Led Zeppelin and the Who at you know, finding out about those bands at 14 or whatever, um, you know, and then like going down a rabbit hole of all the, you know, and there's lots of albums, lots of great songs, and there's lots of cool um uh factoids, right? Yeah. Um, you know, like I said, The Grateful Dead, and you know, that was like the joke is the only music that I would listen to in high school was The Grateful Dead and Jazz, and it's not that wrong.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Um I remember, you know, new age music being like a a big thing, so you know, Ray Lynch, right? And Deep Breakfast, and I remember that being like a game changer for me.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Um did you listen to George Winston at all?

SPEAKER_02 18:20

I love George Winston. I love me a good December for sure. Oh man, those records so good. Um T, you know, like right? Like I was like, oh my god, how's that even possible? You know, Ingve Malmstein, right? Same thing. I remember being like, oh my god, you know, they may as well be Paganini, right? Right, playing the Caprices. Um I I I don't know whether it's been, you know, a specific musician um that I've been so influenced by that I could even, you know, name him or her.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

It's not so influenced by where you it still resonates in your work, but sometimes like when I first heard the Allman Brothers, I I could understand how Dickie Betts, like I could kind of play along and kind of comp it a little bit because I've been a Billy Joel and John guy, so I was you know doing it the other way. But once you get into playing along with a record and you can kind of do your own thing along with it, all of a sudden it's like, wait a second, something happening here. Um, so a lot of times for people like yourself and myself, there's a compulsion to doing music. Like we're compelled beyond all things. And then you balance that by the intention of the things you do to better your chops, better your skills. So, what's your uh compulsion intention relationship these days?

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Uh I mean, okay. I I feel like I'm gonna go on go on a bit of a tangent here. Do it. Um my compulsion is to create. I think that I'm addicted to um both that moment, right? That that that God particle of of a song or of an idea. Um I'm addicted to then following that through and and you know, executing it, you know, perhaps in many different ways and perhaps with many different collaborators, even along the way. Yeah. And then getting to a final point, if you will, where you know it's complete, if a song could ever be complete, and you know, you look back on it and you're like, oh my god, you remember where where we were when it was like, oh my god, that's gonna be the thing, right? Like I love that. I love that that is what I'm addicted to, and I feel like I deal with all the other bullshit of life and that the extreme bullshit of this industry, yeah, in order to um hope to be able to provide myself another opportunity to have that relived experience of create, execute, potentially collaborate, and then complete, you know? Um and one and and that's a new thing that I've identified, right, as a creative. I feel like in in previous years, you know, where I've been more frustrated, you know, or frustrated and inspired or whatever, it it's more of um uh you know, talking about like the hustle of the industry in order to, you know, survive, right? And once I realized that like whatever, right? Like the pandemic and survival during the pandemic, if you will, definitely changed my perspective uh onto life, especially as a you know, creative.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And you know, once I realized that like this is what I you know am here to do, or this is whatever, this is what I like to do. This is What I am, you know? And therefore, and and I've figured it out in many different pivots all along a uh, you know, 30 plus year career. So that gives me a little bit more confidence that I'll be able to continue to figure it out, though I still definitely have that like insecurity that like it's becoming harder and harder, and da-da-da-da-da. And you know, is this live industry even going to be here anymore? And you know, all that.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

And yet you guys are doing great touring. You did the West Coast for the first time and came back, and it's been, you know, you're you have a fan base that is there for you. But I think you know, you guys service that fan base by evolving, keeping it interesting, not forgetting your roots, not like you play little Betty Boop every night, but you you definitely um have evolved as a band. I mean, I saw you back in the day and seeing you at the Roxy and stuff, like the danceability, the everything like that works and gels and the flow state of the band. It's just great. And it's it you guys are not resting on one thing. There's this exploration. So I want to go back to the the wizard comment.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

A lot of musicians, um, again, I I feel like they they don't want to learn more because they don't want it to become clinical. So, how once you know how things work and you have a better understanding of musical structure and stuff, how do you keep wonder alive? You know that that that finger painting. I go back to you know, calling it that finger painting mentality when you're a kid and you're just into it. How do you keep that alive while also knowing all of the intellectual educational information that you know?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Okay. Um well the first thing that I would say if you were somebody asking, like, you know, what my kid plays an instrument and they're really good, what would you recommend? I would say play with as many different people as possible. Yeah, you know, you're like better than you, worse than you, different instruments, same instruments, whatever it is, you will learn a hell of a lot along the way. Yeah, you might you probably won't realize it at the time, and it might be incredibly delayed, you know, how you learn from that person, but you will. Yeah. Um, you know, how do I keep things more fruitful in organic in like an organic?

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah, like you know what you're doing, you know scales, you know chords, you know all these things, but there's an organicness to creation.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

100%. So there's listen, there's lots of different ways to do that, right? You know, the the David Bowie and Brian Eno way of like picking a card that had, you know, some random adjective on it, and you had to do that. Right. Um, you know, for me, you know, if I were to turn my camera around and you know, you see like all these synths on my wall, you know, it's it's it's that, right? It's like painting with a different palette. Um, you know, when working on a track, right? I was I was doing a track yesterday and I don't know where it's going. And you know, that's part of the fun of solving a puzzle, right? And there is no right way, so and it's kind of just me, so I could try anything that I want. Right. And, you know, it's nice to, okay, what is the hydrasynth synth gonna sound like on that one, you know? Yeah. And and and for me, and specifically the hydrosynth, and this is the example that I'm giving for it, because I am more unfamiliar with the the hydrosynth that sits atop my stack there than I am with all my other keyboards. So that to me, you know, it's not like I don't understand how it works, but definitely not confident in it. And that to me will generate some sort of um creative inspirato, right? I I feel that way sometimes about different plugins, you know. And what I've noticed is the second that I get a new plugin, I'm like, oh my god, this is cool. Let me like explore it, right? Like, I feel like I need to be recording all that because you're just like, oh, cool, what does this patch do? And you're like, oh wow, that's so cool. What does this patch do? Oh my god, that's gonna make a great beginning of a song. What does this patch do? And you've moved on to 47 different, you know, really unique and inspiring ideas, right? Like, you know, how much do we look at ourselves and say, you know, that idea that I just had was an inspiring idea, as opposed to, you know, that's an idea, you know, and I could expound upon that idea and probably make a song with it. But like, where is that, like, you know, go hold yourself to a higher, you know, status, right? Like, you know, where's where's that, you know, ingenious idea? You we all have it in us, you know, so let's search a little bit harder for it. And you know, I I don't think I do that all the time, but it'd be nice to hold myself up to that point.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

I love that idea that you're you know, you take something you're unfamiliar with, plugins, whatever, and you're like, let's try this. Let's like trying on different hats. So there's 100%. You know, when you're creating sounds, sometimes there's like, okay, I know the sound I want, I have a basic grass or a deep grass of synthesis, let me get that sound, versus a sound pops up, you're like, Whoa, what is this? And you might tweak it a little. But so it's like, do you do you chase sounds or do sounds chase you?

SPEAKER_02 27:00

You know, like I'm I mean, I feel like that keeps me on my toes with the disco biscuits all the time, right? Like for better or for worse, I don't know. Right, you know, let's say we'll, you know, a a jam will begin, yeah, and every time that jam begins, I'm on a new sound. Again, better or worse, I could make, you know, there's some where I'll go to that, you know, go to the same patch. But right, you know, frequently it's like, okay, where was I just then? Where am I going? You know, what haven't I played this set that I'm going to want to play? Right. And so it's not such, you know, my my friend uh uh Jamie Shields from the New Deal calls it random patch generator, you know, where he'll just go, he'll just go to something and be like, that's what it sounds like, and then I'll just like dial it in, right? That's sort of what I do, but I have a little bit more, or I mean he does that on a on a Juno 106, right? So it doesn't have a a readout, you know, of what patch it's going to be, and nor did he have any notes that like, you know, bank one-seven is gonna be the sound that I play. So um I have a little bit more, you know, organizational things here, right? I know, okay, this bank is gonna be ARPs and this will be leads, and this will be pads, right? But you know, within uh I know oh this one is the one that I use frequently, but I'm not positive what it's going to officially sound like in that moment in that song until I, you know, press play the first note.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

That's that's a lot of mystery. That's a lot of like flying by the seat of your pants.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

I guess so, but it's always kind of what I've what I've done, right? Yeah. And I I will say, you know, for anybody listening that could be like, this guy's an idiot. There's so many programs that can help you be like, you push one button on your iPad and it will flash all of your keyboards to the same place. And I get that, and I do have some of those shortcuts where I need them, but you know, uh again with this you know jam band like anything goes ethos, and I have you know enough prowess on the synthesis now, um, and I enjoy being challenged by the synthesis too, right? It's like, you know, I say this a lot. Some you know, most of the time I make the synthesizer my bitch, and sometimes it makes me, you know, it and and yeah, right, and I like that when the synth like bites back, right? Um, and it can provide for some uh uh you know unintended uh happy thoughts. Sure. Um, but yeah, I'm kind of like I'm I'm always sculpting, I would say, on on any of the synths, and that gives me the flexibility to um uh uh blend from one to the other and to also uh you know paint along to what everybody else is painting, right? It's not just me, right? So that's the other thing. Like that sound might have worked, you know, last week in that track, but right now we're in a different room and you know everybody has different pedals on and the energy is different, right? So, you know, I could do anything that I want. But yeah, it does sound a little bit uh you know walking on a tightrope without a with without a net. But I love that.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

I guess yeah, I mean some bands, you know, they have a certain sound for a certain song, and that's the patch, and that's the sound for the song. And whether it's you know a pre-recorded patch or whether it's you know uh made up at the time, years ago when I was writing for keyboard, I interviewed a guy that played Mogue with Snoop Dogg, and he said that you know there's no recall in the older Mogues. And he said Snoop would call a song and he'd have to know how to dial that patch in right there and have it like right then. And that to me is a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Oh, yeah, totally. I'm not sure whether I would want to bring up a West Coast lead of Snoop Dogg going like you know the line to play and be like, I know the line to play, but I'm not sure what sound is going to come out of it.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

And you have to be confident before you play it that you got the sound all dialed in. So that I think that's Fred Rec might have been his name. But um, you know, everything's different for everybody. You know, if you have a presets versus doing what you're doing, there is a lot more of that, you know, the reason why you guys sound different night after night and is because of that, and because of that feeling that it doesn't have to sound the same. It can be the same melody, but it's gonna be in this patch tonight. So you don't in in a band like yours have a dedication to the sound that was on the record to reproduce that exactly live, more so than the part, and then see where it goes from there. Or do you?

SPEAKER_02 31:20

I uh I mean, listen, the the JP 8000 out of all the synths has been with me from the very beginning. I remember. Um, you know, not I'm sure you do, not not the same one. I've gone through many along the way.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

And yeah, uh, there are certain, you know, songs Jigsaw Earth, I feel like has to have that bell tone from the JP88. Yeah. But you know, um, but even I I maybe it's an age thing too. I kind of stopped caring about all that, and and then also when I like during the pandemic, when it was just me and needed to do something with my time and was like arranging biscuit songs for piano and you know, kind of all that, like I I realized that these songs, you know, don't have to obviously be on that instrument that was played on, and now I'm playing like you know, bass lines and guitar lines on piano, and you know, there's been discussion, even like, okay, can we do this, you know, crazy stage rig that the disco biscuits have on a smaller rig, you know, and in the last you know, couple of years, like just challenge myself and be like, okay, like let's see whether I can do everything just on like you know, this stack and avoid that stack entirely, right? And and and I'm kind of like I'm kind of there, you know. It was a little bit out of out of necessity. It was um, it was also like, you know, kind of like we were talking about before, like, hey man, there's lots of great bell tones on all these scents, and they all have different flavors. Like, yeah, why am I so married to the JB8000s bell? You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

So it's and you know, there's something about that idea when you're I I think people who are are listening to this conversation that are afraid to you know let loose or take chances, they're so you know, they got their main stage or whatever and they just had their patches. I think that challenging yourself is such an underrated thing. I think I don't, you know, people's own fears or their ideas of their own limitations. When you challenge yourself in a studio, that's one thing. At home, that's one thing. When you challenge yourself live on stage and let you know, cut the ropes to where you were and go with sounds and creating sounds in the moment, there's uh a scariness to that, but now you've done that long enough where you're like, I got my zone, I know my knobs, I know my gear. If that one goes down, I got this one.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

You know, I mean, I would probably say if there wasn't um uh uh an a receptive audience in front of me for the last couple of decades, that I would probably still exist in those limitations and fears that you talk about.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

You know, and and like uh honestly, to to any younger musicians that are listening to this, you know, from a couple of now are we aging? Like, how do we even describe ourselves approaching? I'm approaching 50. Are you 50 yet?

SPEAKER_00 34:02

We're we're evolving, we're we're getting into that realm where we soon become the older statesman, right? Well, I gotta grow the long beard again.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

But uh I mean you're almost there with the hair.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

So let me ask you, let me ask you, what is what is a non-musical uh interest or influence that has most influenced your musical self? It could be a book, it could be uh nature, it could be a sport, it could be anything, but something that influences your music is not necessarily musical. Oh that's a great answer. That's a great answer.

SPEAKER_02 34:45

You know, and I I I don't even know how to expound upon that. Um I I feel well number one, you know, with empathy, empathy, there's a little bit of like, you know, forgiveness, right? Forgiveness of like, you know, yourself and forgiveness of you know uh other people and you know and and and and all that. Um there's a little bit of like um listen, I play in a in a group situation, right? You know, um, and so I feel like in order to understand um you know how the group operates, we also to varying extents understand how the individuals operate, right? You know, and and therefore you could kind of understand how that individual operates within the context of the group. And so with a little bit more empathy, you have a little bit more filters to kind of like you know see that. Yep. Um and I I think it all gets reflected in your in your playing. I mean, you know, I'm sure we've all played in in tense environments or where you know we individually have been distracted by you know life's events and not really, you know, paying attention to what we should be paying attention to in the music. And you know, same thing there, right? Like if you have like, you know, even the empathy for like, yeah, man, there is a whole world and lots of different people that live in this world outside of the friggin' music that we're playing right now, you know? Like, why do I think this matters even so much? Uh, but you know, it matters to me, and you know, it and it matter and it matters to other people too. I mean, I I listen, I I've been blessed to have uh a fan base that has you know been able to support a career for three decades, and I am truly appreciative of that. But what I'm most appreciative of is when somebody comes over to me and they, you know, tell me how my music, our music has changed their life in a positive way, right? Whether that's you know by the people that they've met through the scene and you know, their best friends or their spouse or you know, the business plans or whatever, you know, or or being at a low, you know, I get this all the time, like I was really at a low point in my life, and you know, I listened to this show or this song and it got me through it, right? And and these are uh in order to relay it to me, they're relaying it with the same passion that you know they they had with that song. So I'm able to sort of get it. Um, you know, so yeah, man. I mean, I I know I'm distracting from your question a little bit, right like, but like, you know, if we're like what's the reason we're all here, you know, like I don't know. Uh I don't think any of us know, but like maybe to like influence each other in some sort of positive way, you know, uh known or unknown, right? To ourselves or to the other person.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Yeah, I mean, look, we we attract people with music, right? So your audience is attracted to you in a way that if you were just standing in the club, they wouldn't all you know come up and be so rapturous. So we we identify with music, and I'm sure, and let's go back to when you started going to concerts. Did your parents take you to concerts when you were young at all?

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Um I feel like when I started getting uh going to concerts, I was getting uh chaperoned. And then like when I was unable to get a chaperone, I you know would take a parent. But yeah, I mean, you know, 89 Rolling Stones, you know, steel wheels tour and the same, you know, div like you know, 12, 13 years old Division Bell, I think was that year too. Yeah. Um you know, again, going to dead concerts with like camp counselors and stuff like that. Okay. Um, but but also, you know, brought my mom to that same uh you know three-day run at the at the spectrum. Sweet. You know, remember somebody like passing her a joint. Um and like, you know, I mean, I was definitely way too young to even like think about it, but like she like looked at it and she was like, ah, it's past my time, and like handed it back to the guy, and I was like, that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Yeah. Um what's what's a concert from back in those days that you still talk about to this day? That just like so such a critical show at a critical time for you.

SPEAKER_02 39:11

Um, okay. I remember seeing uh with my father, uh, because my my dad was very big into like taking me out to jazz shows and stuff. Um, I remember him taking me to see Harry Connick Jr. at um this like what's basically a club on South Street, and it was well before Harry met Sally, right? So he was just this like 18-year-old kid from New Orleans, probably on his first tour, you know, yeah, and destroyed that place, right? And for me, you know, looking at this like, you know, white piano player, you know, kid piano player, even, right? I was like, oh my god, like okay, here we go. That was that was powerful, you know. And I can't really remember whether you had a trio with them or whether it's just solo, but it was it was powerful. Uh my dad also, this is probably my biggest feather in the hat, uh, took me to the Academy of Music and saw Miles Davis. Oh, wow. So very cool. That was that was really cool. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Did you understand what Miles was or was doing at the time, or was it just like, wow, this is cool?

SPEAKER_02 40:14

No, I I I definitely got it because I was already into uh Amandla, which I think was the the the tour or or tutu, whatever. Um sometime around then. Um and he was like in this red trumpet phase and everything like that, you know. So um yeah, I I I probably didn't realize like how cool it was that I was, you know, seeing that, but I was definitely in into Miles at the time.

SPEAKER_03 40:38

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Um you know, and I know it's like jazz, but but you know, I remember my parents taking me up to like, you know, the New York jazz clubs, you know, as a kid and not just being like influential of like a what what that vibe was. Yeah, you know. Um you know, my first concert was was at a it was like after the temple football game by the Beach Boys. That was fun. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Nice. So when once you started going to shows on your own, um, what was a band you saw whose music you were really familiar with that you were like excited to see and you knew the tunes and and you hit it?

SPEAKER_02 41:16

I mean, you know, Grateful Dead, like, you know, I can't I can't really yeah, I can't really say anything else, right? You know, like I was I I I saw The Grateful Dead, you know, like a lot of times before, you know, 1995, and that was in a you know pretty young place in in my life.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Um and it just like opened my eyes to like the the scene. Like I had no idea that that type of scene could like exist around something as intangible as music, yeah um, you know, and and that type of community. And I was definitely attracted to it. I was always attracted to counterculture stuff, you know, and I I think I still very much view the world through that lens. Um, you know, especially since I've always kind of like you know been the the the salmon swimming upstream in this life, right? Of you know, figuring out how to make something work and not have to work for the man or anything like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

Um what other uh so you know definitely some fish, right? Like I've always been more grateful dead than fish. I do love fish. I think that you know their their creativity is stunning, um, their sustained creativity is stunning. I, you know, also appreciate all of their musicianship and their you know commitment to the art form of improvisation, you know. Total commitment throughout throughout all these years. Yeah. Um, you know, I never really got on that bandwagon as many shows as I've seen. I've never really got on that bandwagon the way that you know so many of my friends have. But I've certainly have seen my fair share of fish concerts.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Right on.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Um, you know, I think the concerts that that you know I I I still talk about um in the last 10, 15 years is Paul McCartney at Bonaroo. Oh yeah. Um and and that was the first time that that I saw Paul, and you know, after that I was like, oh my god, there's a living beetle, and he's awesome, and also has like fireworks at the end of his show and lasers during Mr. Kite. Like, oh my god, this is incredible. Yeah. Um, but you know, and also um listen, it was at Bonneroo, and I was, you know, with a lot of friends, and there's obviously a lot of young people at Bonaroo, more so than the other Paul McCartney concerts that I saw, and and you know, understanding how music can be fluid um, you know, through generations, I thought was fascinating. Yeah, I think about that too when I'm going to you know dead and company shows and I see you know deadhead grandma and you know teenage deadhead kids and you know, these cross generations. I think that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

It's like what music lasts is interesting because as you get past the heyday of certain bands when they had their moment, you know, uh Grand Funk Railroad sold out Shea Stadium faster than the Beatles.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

they're relatively a footnote if anybody knows about them modern in modern times you know um what band are you surprised kind of fell off the the radar that you're like man I thought they would kind of always be a little more known really everything before 2000 but you know I I still question like the the and and I know all the information about it you know but I still question the the the necessity of of you know Pink Floyd not being able to like you know make some more music together or Led Zeppelin not being able to make some music together and I know that that one's different than say you know Simon and Garfunkel same thing like not like come on guys you know like you can figure this out and just some sing some pretty songs and some trying times you know to get us through.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

So you know not to say that I need more Paul you know Simon and Garfunkel in my life. I think I've had enough Simon and Garfunkel but you know if there was a could have been listen I I thought that with you know even when they put out new Beatles tracks like I thought I had enough Beatles tracks and you know those new ish ones aren't the best Beatles tracks but man that's so fucking cool. There's like new Beatles songs that even has John on it you know all these years later it's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

It's interesting when people they get to a certain age and like why aren't the Rolling Stones putting out records like all the time like they used to within built you know Elton John in the early 70s he had a period of like three years where he put out some of his best records like two at a time three at a time like every year and then they go 10 years at a time without putting out a record because again it's the business they have to work one record as a cycle I liked the uh last stones record but it's kind of one of these things you wonder why are these people taking so much time not doing music? You know like what are you doing? I I mean right like it's time to get to it you know it's clearly a short life and there's a lot of music to be made well even that one built that one Billy Joel song that he came out with finally a new Billy Joel song is actually really good but just one song in 30 plus years he had recorded for less time than he had since he stopped recording you know and you go like what what are you doing? Are you holding on to like a box set for when you die like here's all the stuff I made I just didn't think it would hold up to the stranger so like it's a good it's a good song too. Yeah really good it's a good song I remember that one yeah I don't know what's you know so many artists their early stuff is the stuff and their later stuff just they can't they can't capture that magic whereas there are bands like I like a lot of Fish's later stuff. Um one of my favorite bands Sloan I like their later stuff so are there bands that you like that you feel their later stuff is as crucial as some of their earlier stuff and they've managed to hold on to that spark or that magic I'm sure but now it's like you know he's in all the movies. Oh name one right now there's much more examples of bands that just stopped creating at the level that they did or artists you know songwriters lyricists you know you could talk about a Dylan or a McCartney. You listen to McCartney 3 which he did during the pandemic and he played all the instruments you still hear that finger painting guy you still hear the guy like oh what's this sound oh what's this sound you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah hearing that versus being able to write something as critical as yesterday are in a way two different things but I love the spirit but at the same time absolutely it's hard to figure out a a band whose later stuff is as critical as their early stuff. So why why do people fall off?

SPEAKER_02 47:32

What happens you know well I mean you know arguably it's it's it's a young man's game right of of you know you're more creative in your formative years when you're more inspired by you know the the unknowns of life and before you get into your grudges of life or your scenes wouldn't you get better at what you're doing like wouldn't it go to like no I I that's that's yeah that's the conundrum right there's there's a story I tell you more experience and more knowledge one of the first producers I worked with told me your best songs are ahead of you and at the time I took it as a slight because I was like these songs are great but I always want to feel that way.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

The stuff that I'm gonna write this year I'm gonna write some in amazing incredible stuff I'm gonna challenge myself I'm gonna grow so I I have that mentality but maybe it's fame maybe it's money maybe it's substances maybe it's relationships it's all the business it's all the other things that take people away from that act of really just genuine creation and very few people aside from McCartney seem to have that ability to just dip back in and have fun.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

It's like okay now everybody's listening to every word that I write now everybody expects a yesterday so what do I you know so uh I remember in many instances just kind of wondering like why isn't this new stuff as good as that old stuff you know and well it's it's number one perspective and you know how you identify with it right so you know let's take the the McCartney example was that the one that he did for like the video game um didn't he like do the music for a video game or something like that? No it was it was just McCartney 3 because you know McCartney and then McCartney 2 and McCartney 3 that there was those were just him making his own music you know so and then you know did he play any of those songs you know at at the next Paul McCartney concerts during the album cycle?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

He may have felt you know everybody's gonna want to hear all the classics so they might have room for one or two but that's it.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Right and and and and he and everybody else knows I don't know the song you know just play the old just play the song that I know. Right right and and it's for I think a similar reason that you know even even as artists I don't think that I you know I'll speak for myself yeah I don't think that I push my um uh musical palette of you know what I am influenced by as much as I should as a creative and I think that that is only a product of my age right I think that I identify more with the music that I know that I like and that I'm you know I I identify with or music that was very impressionable upon me in my formative years, right? That's a really big thing for all of us. You know we love that band whether it's you know Nirvana or you know funk and whatever it is that was like so important to us in our formative years and will you know continue into classic rock is a great example of that right and you'll go into your adult years you know not knowing who Sabrina Carpenter is you know and that's I think okay yeah but like you know but you you certainly know you know all the grand funk railroad songs there are to know. Right.

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Um so um it's nostalgia it's it's a it's a powerful thing that's why the music that you're exposed to when you're young is so important. So like your kids and my kids since we're musicians have heard more music just around the house than most kids would in a non-musical household but I find that the good stuff it works. Like if I don't care what genre or what song if it's a great song that kid's gonna not be able to stop singing it because it's just it still hasn't yeah that currency um which I love. So um I want to wrap up and asking I got a a term that I like to come to and this I got from David really David Bowie for me. An artist that gave you that kind of self-permission to be free as an artist. So watching a guy like Bowie transform into Ziggy Stardust then transform into the thin white duke and then and then and you know watching somebody exhibit so much and I use that term self-permission um what would be uh an artist or a band that really contributed to you opening the the width of what you've become um probably Frank Zappa very you know how so it it well so probably the reason that you know I'm in a jam band is because I have all these influences of music that I enjoy um you know playing and listening to and everything like that.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

And I I feel like Frank was somebody that you know took that craft seriously but not seriously at the same time you know and you know able to blend genres together where like they didn't even necessarily matter anymore what the genre was that you were playing and it was just music. And it was all these like well informed musicians you know even learning more about themselves and about group playing and some really you know complicated stuff in there. And I'm not to say I'm attracted to that but I I respect that.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yeah um especially for somebody that you know on the outside didn't take himself too seriously you know um right and because again it's music like you know it's mostly self-fulfilling right and hopefully we we get other people that have the same type of response to 100% well a guy like Zappa a guy like Bowie these are people who were they they were able to break from any one genre so that their name like what's Frank Zappa's music? It's Frank Zappa music you know right so um what would you say would be another band besides Bowie and Zappa where or the band or the artist where their name is their genre I mean Miles and jazz right like you know I mean yeah kind of kind of synonymous with each other.

SPEAKER_02 53:55

Well a Thelonious monk like with a piano so with instruments with guitars you can put a lot of effects and stuff with an acoustic piano to sound like oh yeah that's that's monk right away you know that's hard that's really hard you know to be identifiable notes in that's hard so I and there's not many people like that because 100% unless you're deep into like McCoy Tiner and you know you're you go okay that's McCoy that's dodo marmosa and you know that you know different names as first you listen it's just I feel like even a neophyte can be like oh that sounds you know like the cluster chords and the atonals and the like the you know everybody else is kind of doing you know rhythm sections doing what everybody else is like doing right you know but like that piano is distinctively thelonious you know for sure yeah 100% great I think you guys as the disco biscuits you know whether we're the thelonious of jam bands.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Well no whether you call it bisco or transfusion both both names that I love I think you guys have become identifiable and and have kind of developed a sound and you know I've seen and heard a lot of jam bands and everybody has a sound. Some of them are a little more maybe generic than others but you guys have evolved you've switched drummers and you know different things that happened to push you along but the genesis of what you are has become this thing that I you know I I love and I find it unique and uh I love to see you guys play.

SPEAKER_02 55:20

So I hope you come back out west sometime soon you know thanks Robbie I mean it's it's just crazy to still be doing it after you know 30 plus years with the same band that you know stop now. It's the only thing I know.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

Yeah well I know you got to get in the studio. I thank you so much for your time. You're awesome and let's uh do this again sometime uh casually and unprofessionally love it I love it thank you Robbie it is wonderful to see you again old friend you too